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| Getting Married | |
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Topic: Brazilian girl turns my life around - am I a fool? |
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vera
Newbie
Joined: 20 July 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 9 |
![]() Posted: 27 July 2010 at 12:10 |
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We all wish we had all answers to our questions. What makes people so interesting is that we can have different opinions about the same subjects. As english is not my mother language, I may have transmitted the wrong message, sorry if I did. |
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Squiddie
Groupie
Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 69 |
![]() Posted: 27 July 2010 at 12:46 |
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Sorry, Vera, I didn't mean to belittle your contribution. The amazing thing is that we do not know what makes people happy together in the long term. There is plenty of opinions, but very little hard evidence. Yet all the time people argue with their opinions. For example, it is often assumed that if mates have similar intellectual capacity they would do better in the long term than if there are differences, in other words, e.g. in "what are you going to talk about then"? Assuming that it is necessary for long term happiness and stability that mates can discuss intellectual matters. But is that true? I don't think it is true.
But this questionable contribution of equal intelligence for stable happy relationships is only one example of where we simply don't know what makes relationships work in the long run. Another author has described 5 ingredients of relationship chemistry which are determinants: intimate connection, physical fit, fun, respect, safety. If these fit, things can be very good for a long time. This author does not mention intellectual fit at all, and it is based on clinical evidence gathered in many years of relationship counseling. What is really annoying me about Esprit's piece earlier is that he assumes too much, even how I ended up in the primary relationship that I have. The bottom line is, people do jump ships, divorces happen. Yes it hurts. But yes it can be managed, especially as far as kids are concerned. Yes it's not ideal. But so what? Pin me down in a straight jacket? What else is this lecturing in nifty speech trying to accomplish? Esprit is also assuming that it is a given that this Brazilian girl is a mistake for me anyway. We don't know this. There is the question of whether she is a mistake for me if I was free. And there is the other question whether even if she was not a mistake, I should make myself free. These questions have answers, even rational answers, somewhere. But certainly these answers are in the specific, not in generalizations and not in all those supposedly literary words that Esprit is spinning without knowing the details of the case in question. Currently I simply refuse to jump to conclusions. I have a chance to find out more. Ideally I will end up finding that no I was mistaken by her and will find that life at home would be really much better (now) than it looked before (and no, I do not need Esprit jumping to conclusions about whose fault this is and how it happened as it did.) Less ideally, I will find that yes, she is the one, but too late and I can still decide to desist from going for my bliss to keep life simple for the family or to spend a lot of emotional energy on going after a dream come true. There is many ways to do these things, bunch of people just dump and run. Others find some way of making a viable arrangement. And whatever the decision, the final outcome no one knows or can predict. |
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vera
Newbie
Joined: 20 July 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 9 |
![]() Posted: 27 July 2010 at 13:27 |
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Você entende bem português? Se você disser que sim, mais tarde quando eu voltar do trabalho the respondo em português para evitar qualquer mal-entendido.
Abraço.
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Squiddie
Groupie
Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 69 |
![]() Posted: 27 July 2010 at 14:28 |
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Oi Vera, sim, eu entendo português. Obrigado.
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Esprit
Senior Member
Joined: 28 January 2010 Location: Brazil Online Status: Offline Posts: 314 |
![]() Posted: 27 July 2010 at 16:15 |
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Could it be possible that I exaggerate my aim above the mark in order to hit the right point on the target? By hitting the target, let’s call that the sore point, we can transcend all of the irrelevant fluff in this painful scenario; by fluff I refer to what we both agree is your irrational infatuation. And by the way, your assumption that my world is in perfect order may be just as erroneous – think about that. Meanwhile there is the progress of your acceptance that you are a mess; let’s expand that to confused disarray: Seemingly you have a loving wife and family. I understand that you reciprocate this love. You say that you are in love with another woman; a woman about whom you know precious little and have yet to consummate this relationship. You say that you don’t want to hurt anybody. You want to be free to love everybody. You are aware that you cannot reasonably expect acceptance of your desires from all parties. You cannot make the decision whether to, in effect, abandon the wife and children or forego the other woman. You entertain the concept of Solomon’s judgement of halving the problem by having the other woman as a mistress despite knowing that this idea wouldn’t work. You seek advice, opinion and example from which you may be able to strike equilibrium from a balance sheet of pain and pleasure that will help your decision making process. Your pleas for help indicate that you have the character traits of a weak yet principled man caught in a vicious emotional dilemma that has awakened rudimentary desires; vicious because fantasy has become incarnate in minuscule part. And like all fantasies, you appear not to fully explore the aftermath; the impact not only on your life, that of your family’s lives, extended family and friends, business, economic and social implications but only on the endless loop of dreaming of the warmth and affection of simply being in a poetic state of blissful union with this other woman; an alien goddess. You know that you have insufficient information upon which to make this decision. You assume and seem to enjoy demigod status in all of this, perversely agonising in a vacuum this critical decision in the absence of input from the other parties that are likely to undergo a life-changing upheaval. Were this scenario depicted in an old British colonial movie, the colonel would say, “Dash it all Caruthers...pull yourself together man...the woman’s a native. We don’t want to frighten the horses...eh, what? Think of the regiment...think of the little woman at home.” Of course Caruthers later returns back to barracks mortally wounded and dies in the arms of his beloved watched by a tearful audience. Fade to black, roll titles. The writers knew that the story couldn’t have a happy ending. |
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Esprit
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vera
Newbie
Joined: 20 July 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 9 |
![]() Posted: 27 July 2010 at 16:46 |
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Sobre seu primeiro parágrafo :
Eu acho que o que mantem um casal unido é a admiração. Primeiro nos encantamos com o óbvio, isto é, aparencia física, simpatia, charme, etc., etc.. A medida em que vamos conhecendo melhor a pessoa, e uma vez estabilizados os níveis hormonais, esta admiração aumenta ou diminui, e muitas vezes acaba.
Se as pessoas têm o mesmo nível intelectual, podem estabelecer uma relação de troca muito enriquecedora, pois estas podem conversar sobre assuntos diversos e complementar um ao outro. Isto funciona.
Podem também tornarem-se competitivos, o que não é de todo ruim, pois os desafios são sempre estimulantes. Pode dar certo.
Quando os níveis intelectuais são diferentes, pode haver admiração unilateral, e a recompensa daquele que está efetivamente contribuindo para a relação, é o prazer de ser admirado. Pode funcionar, mas aí falamos de auto-estima e vaidade. Se o admirado for extremamente vaidoso, funciona.
Segundo parágrafo :
Respeito é indispensável em todos os relacionamentos. Apesar do autor não ter mencionado, para uma boa relação íntima, é preciso haver outras boas conecções, em termos de relacionamentos de longa duração.
Terceiro parágrafo :
Consulte-se com um profissional sobre como tratar deste assunto com as crianças.
Quarto parágrafo :
Você vai achar a resposta. Pode ser feliz, pode se dar mal, mas vai sobreviver. Simplificando muito, o que é bom para mim pode não ser bom para você.
Quinto parágrafo :
Só me preocupa você usar a palavra "sonho". Conhecendo bem a realidade, podemos torná-la mais atraente.
Abraço
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Squiddie
Groupie
Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 69 |
![]() Posted: 27 July 2010 at 19:53 |
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Thanks Vera, this issue of admiration is a good point. Infatuation brings admiration. And how can it be sustained? The being on the same intellectual level may help, but, it might not, and I am still not sure if it actually makes the major difference. Liking the same life style, being complementary, having fun in simple things, these could be equally or more important factors stabilizing a happy relationship in the long run.
Of course I am consulting professionals regarding these things. It is the single biggest most difficult situation I have ever been in. And thank you for your optimism. Yes, I too am confident that in the end I will have the ability to obtain an answer to my dilemma. I just need more time. Fortunately I could negotiate somewhat more time, so I don't have to jump to conclusions. Esprit: you shoot a straw man target, a stereotype. Aiming high will get you to hit the real target as good or bad as aiming left. Whatever you say has only one conclusion, and you can say it hundred times over, I will still not just buy it. Your underlying premises are: (1) the girl is not worth it, (2) whatever I have now is better, (3) I necessarily would abandon my kids, (4) other costs of the change spoil the idea of the change. These assumptions may be likely in many cases, but may be not in my case. The fact that I may not see clearly also does not alter the fact that you simply can't know. Here I was merely seeking advice on how these relationships can work out. How to figure the cultural difference and other risks. I got a lot of answers. Many signs to look at closely. Many I could rule out for sure. I also got some examples that it can work. Got plenty of warnings too. Good. All the rest is looking at the details, which you, Esprit, do not have access to. That does not keep you from always knowing better. I believe this girl is special, very special. I could be wrong, very wrong. But if she is special, I do not want to miss it. So, I want to find out better. Fortunately I am given a chance in this because of the way that I have so far managed my case. I will have to make my own decision what to do about the other things. I am probably going to survive, but hopefully happily so. By the way, keeping this girl as a mistress was your idea, Esprit, not mine. (And you did not miss the chance of belittling her in the process.) This is not a solution, except if both of the ladies were to agree to the deal, which they initially didn't think they would. Who knows. But I know it is unlikely and quite untenable for any extended amount of time. Either lady is too good. There is a third and forth alternative also: free myself and not go with her or wait for 10 years until the kids are out of the house and then change. These alternatives are open to me if the conclusion is that this girl is not actually that special. All of these could be good choices. |
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Esprit
Senior Member
Joined: 28 January 2010 Location: Brazil Online Status: Offline Posts: 314 |
![]() Posted: 28 July 2010 at 03:10 |
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May I remind you of your post:
I would never advise a man to keep a mistress under such circumstances and my suggestion of your intention to do so is clearly justified when you say that you want to remain with your kids, don’t want a divorce and would move your ‘lover’ to your country of residence. You stand corrected. The unfortunate reality is that you appear to be too much in touch with the feminine side of your personality and corroborating clues are clearly evidenced in your posts that are also narcissistic in outlook. It’s demonstrably obvious that you lack the courage to act in a decisive manner; preferring instead to agonise in the ‘exotic torture’ of this masochistic fantasy of yours. Step back a moment and think; you have been in her company for just a couple of days, the briefest of encounters and, conspicuously, never had sex with her. This was followed by endless hours of electronic ‘pillow talk’ and poetry – that’s it. Everything else is imagination and wishful thinking. Whatever is lacking in your life is falsely personified in the imagined potential of this woman. Ordinarily I should care more about self-destructive personalities instead of preferring to enjoy the perverse pleasure of watching life’s lessons being learnt [do we not find pleasure in the misfortunes of others?]. Yet when the lives of innocents are negatively affected, I make some small effort to prevent such mistakes. |
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Esprit
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Squiddie
Groupie
Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 69 |
![]() Posted: 28 July 2010 at 06:53 |
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Esprit, this just goes to show that you don't care to actually read what I say and ask what I mean but you presume, presume, presume. I remember well when you started talking about the mistress thing, while I never said or meant it, read it again:
where did I say I'd keep her as a mistress? Never. And you did advise so, or presume, or whatever. I don't even know what you actually mean because you put all your stuff into such long-winded speeches with bunch of allusions. What I meant (and said) is that I would not desert my kids after a divorce. That I would stick close by so that the kids can have both parents around. As much as I would love to live in Brazil or even another warm place, I'd stay close to my kids to maintain a good relationship with them. Alas, that did not cross your mind. You just go on presuming whatever it is you want to presume. Make a straw man, knock it down. All the while cooking your word-soup to show what an eloquent man you are. Yes, I also said I did not want a divorce, but I also said that neither of the ladies would probably go without a clear-cut decision. So, one of the options need to be cut eventually. Edited by Squiddie - 28 July 2010 at 06:55 |
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zerotres
Senior Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Brazil Online Status: Online Posts: 462 |
![]() Posted: 28 July 2010 at 10:04 |
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Squiddie, do you realize that if you were to leave your family in order to have a relationship with a poor 20something Brazilian, your wife would have you legally BY THE BALLS?
It's an easy argument in the courts due to the history of child abductions in Brazil-US couples. Your wife can say she's afraid you'd take the kids to Brazil and never come back. And boom, she wins custody, and you never see the kids again. Hell has no fury like a woman scorned. |
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