Originally posted by Squiddie ...What I meant (and said) is that I would not desert my kids after a divorce. That I would stick close by so that the kids can have both parents around. As much as I would love to live in Brazil or even another warm place, I'd stay close to my kids to maintain a good relationship with them. ...Yes, I also said I did not want a divorce, but I also said that neither of the ladies would probably go without a clear-cut decision. So, one of the options need to be cut eventually.

Two words that can cause confusion; “probably” and “eventually.” Can there any doubt in your mind that your wife would be devastated by the prospect of you having another woman and immediately file for divorce? The use of the word ‘probably’ suggests that you entertain the possibility of her reconciliation with such an abomination. Alternatively, do you mean that without a clear-cut decision on your part that neither of the ladies would go suggesting that you could maintain the status quo; having both in your life? Confusing.

Now we turn to ‘eventually.’ A seagull landing on top a mountain, rubs its beak and flies away not to return for a thousand years; this is repeated over the eons. Eventually the mountain would be worn down to nothing. What do you mean by eventually and what happens in the interim? Confusing.

The children: You say that would want to stay close for at least ten years in order that they might have both parents in support. Have you considered their reaction to this upheaval? They love you and mommy but you don’t love mommy enough to live with her; you love this other woman more. Why don’t you love mommy anymore...mommy is nice. Who is this other surrogate mommy; this strange foreign wicked stepmother, just like in the fairytales?  Are we expected to love her little munchkin just like a new brother or sister?  You want to live with her and her child but you do not want to live with us...you love them more. Mommy is crying. Daddy doesn’t want to live with us anymore. We hate that witch! We hate daddy for doing this.

Squiddie, knowing your propensity for woolly thinking you’ll probably phuck up their little minds with your bull crap and thus add to the pile of dysfunctional humanity. And all for what?   

Uma coisa que percebo em casais que estão juntos há muito tempo, é que eles querem estar juntos, simples assim. Certamente a vida deles não foi um mar de rosas o tempo todo, mas também não descobriram um no outro uma falha inaceitável que os impedisse de conversar e resolver. Eles se focam nos pontos positivos do outro. As pessoas se casam porque vêem algo  maravilhoso na outra pessoa, e naquele momento é o que elas precisavam. Porquê não precisam mais, eu não sei. Tente se lembrar o que tinha a sua esposa que tanto te encantou,  e o que fez com que vocês se distanciassem. Parece que ainda existe uma conexão forte entre vocês além dos filhos e do sentimento de compromisso. Que tal tentar com vontade reacender esta chama antes de partir para outra ?

There are four all together separate things muddled together, as it goes in life.

(1) my relationship with my wife
(2) the nature, quality, and fit of this Brazilian woman for me
(3) divorce, the children, and other effects of the marriage
(4) myself (of course)

I appreciate Vera's appeal to seek to rescue (1). I understand why many people here are trying to warn me of (2). Divorce (3) is never happy, the thought of it and its consequences gives me a great amount of anxiety, and anxiety is something I have not had for decades. Of course, given what I contemplate I discredit (4) myself in the eyes of many, and Esprit is missing no opportunity to rant at my character or personality. But that is easy to do if you are not or have not been in the situation. I would have talked the same way only a few months ago.

At this time I am rather loath to open up any more, because whatever I say is turned into evidence of my flawed character and personality by Esprit. So, I will simply insist that my character or personality is as flawed as anyone elses' and I am just now in a particular dicey and vulnerable situation. Stop doctoring on my character and personality. Stop those silly remote diagnoses. Simply accept that I am contemplating a decision that I think will be best for me and I am looking out for the effect it has on others. If it was not so, I would not be opening myself up in this environment. I really have a lot better things to do in life normally.

Also, since it has been mentioned here various times: I am not looking for scientific proof of anything, I am not looking for 100% certainty before I can make a decision. I am just trying to make a good decision using as much evidence as I can, the way decisions ought to be made. I don't need Esprit's presumptions, I feel I have much more to lose that I can't decide based on such presumptions but based on the real issues the real people involved. These are real people, I, the two women, the children. No meaningful conclusions here can be made in the abstract, every case is different.

The experience I had has opened my eyes about a principle problem with my marriage that has been there from the beginning: where it mattered most to me, we did not fit. We had a fine arrangement, but something was missing, where I had the greatest hope of being happy, my spouse did not seem happy at all, and vice versa, she wanted me different that I was. I will not discuss this any further because I hate it when Esprit falls over whatever I say and assaults my character and personality. The question for me is: can there be a better fit for me (and yes, for her too)? And for now I am faced with a realization that, yes there could be a better fit. It could be possible that there is a person out there who actually enjoys and values those things that I enjoy and value, where no compromise has to be found for those things that matter most, that are least dispensable. And if that is so, can this be important enough to make a change? Even if the change affects other people? Does such change necessarily destroy or lastingly damage the other people in my life or can they cope? Is the result healthy or detrimental, if managed carefully?

These are rhetorical questions, because I believe that the answer is: yes. It is unreasonable to think there could not be a person who fits me, or that I somehow don't deserve to find out even if there is. Everybody is free to find their happiness. Of course this is very serious business, not something to goof off doing lightly. But if I was doing anything lightly, I would not open myself up here to the assaults of the sorts of Esprit who take it upon themselves to rescue the world of bad characters and personalities such as mine. People change their minds all the time, divorces happen for reasons much more stupid all the time. Such things can be managed among respectful and reasonable people -- and don't you assault my character now saying that if I claim something for me that this is necessarily disrespectful or unreasonable! Yes, emotions being involved it is a great challenge, but it can be mastered. And emotions of one person can not be a reason to hold the other person captive and in submission against their wish.

So, in the end, for the scope of this forum, only (2) should be discussed: the quality of this girl and the possibility of a fit. No, not "this girl" because this forum can not discuss any particular people in enough detail to do justice to the individual case. All that can be discussed is whether it is possible to find good girls out of low social class, and if that can be a good fit for a well to-do gringo.

There have been other gringos coming to Brazil and met a match which they have not met in their home country. Why have they done this if it were true that it's all just the same? So, the question if I have lately had procured affairs with ladies in the country where I live is irrelevant in so far as it is not an experiment that should have been made. Have I grown in self-confidence over the years? Yes. Have I grown in maturity and relative attractiveness (compared to others in my age group) since I was 18? Yes. I do not need to be narcissistic in order to have that much self-confidence that I can say yes to this, and no one here knows me to be able to doubt that. (If I was such a crappy guy, my wife would have a good reason to divorce me, and so all the better for her if I did her the favor.) Could I therefore go and search a new match for me locally? Possibly. Would I, if I was free? No, if I was free now, I would still try my luck in Brazil. The place where I live is not my home country either, and I don't like these things here much. Nor would I try it in any other "hunting grounds" than Brazil, and I have been literally around the world looking at several countries, peoples and cultures in much depth. In Brazil I felt right at home and there seems to be a good fit on these things. So, with this, the question turns to the most important remaining matter:

Is the girl that I found the right one? Real or fake? No one here can answer that question. Many people see red flags in what I report. I understand, because simply looking at the circumstances, there is a lot of reason for skepticism. But the problem is, I can not report all that I know, because that would compromise privacy and just makes me (and then also her) more vulnerable to these attacks from types like Esprit. I have already opened up too much and it has already backfired a lot. In the end, there can anyway not be a reasonable expectation for anyone approaching a forum like this to receive an answer about their particular case, it's simply not possible. No person should be judged simply based on their background or type.

What is possible though, and can be helpful to others in these situations (which are reportedly not unique), is to find out how one can tell the difference between genuine or not? What tests can be made? What are tell-tale signs? The list provided here earlier, is a start, but there is some unreasonable stuff there and it remains in doubting rather that confirming.

So what arguments can be believed? "My girl is not like those others" is not an argument that overcomes skepticism because I could just be blind. But neither is "if it's too good to be true it usually isn't". Finding the right person for oneself is not something that "usually" happens every day. So, one can not argue like this. When it is reported that she does not ask or seem interested in material stuff, it is not useful to reply "come on, that doesn't mean much, life is hard in Brazil". This is all simply cultivating the stereotypes. The point is to find out if this person here, or that person there is genuine or not. If you say "they are never genuine" then that is your opinion, but don't make me believe it. If you say "they are rarely genuine" then that is probably true.  But what if the person is genuine? Would it not be worthwhile to find out for anyone having met such a person? And if so, how?

Especially the issue with GP or semi-pros needs to be separated from this question. I would agree that it is never ever a good idea to try to "rescue" a GP or semi-pro because they have fully committed to trade in personal dignity for good money and have learned all the ropes of deception. Yes there could be a rare angel among them, and all of them are humans worth loving, but it is as unlikely to be happy with them as it is to be happy with an alcoholic or one suffering from bipolar disorder. You buy into a huge load of baggage. However, what if the girl is not a GP or semi-pro?

The GP/semi-pro issue can be found out (it's probably worth giving some tips how to do that). It certainly is unreasonable, however, to say that all low class Brazilian girls must be GPs or semi-pros. I believe it is actually the minority. I'd say no more than 20% of low-class girls are GPs or semi-pros. I could believe that may be 70% of low-class girls hooked up to a gringo are GPs or semi-pros. But there is enough room for a good one in here. I believe I have been looking enough in my case that I can be 80% sure that this one is not a GP or semi-pro. I still value ideas for tests to falsify my belief, but it has to be an actual test, not just just another statement of unfavorable prior probabilities.

Here are two examples of a possible "test" one can make with a girl who may be genuine: Go with her to reasonable shopping and observe her in this process. Another piece of information should come from interacting with the family and observing their interactions and lifestyle (not sure exactly what to look at. But how, for example, should one think of the role that religion plays in the family?) Of course, anything that people say or do could be a pretense, a nifty show put up to lure bait, but with more exposure, it is harder to keep up such pretence.

I don't have an answer, and I don't expect to get one here from the next post. I am sure Esprit will continue harvesting my message to launch more attacks at my character and personality. I am sure things will generally continue the way they have in the past 16 pages of this thread. But the really good things in life are always the exceptions, this is why I continue being hopeful about the exceptional posting in this thread, as I continue to be hopeful about the exceptional personal encounter in this life.



Edited by Squiddie - 30 July 2010 at 17:29

I am not belittling anyone. I stumbled into a girl who is incredibly nice, seems very good at heart, we have a wonderful chemistry and enjoy each other immensely, I love her and she loves me very much. Everything seems wonderfully right. I didn't try to find anyone, it just happened. I didn't choose her social class. But I do not intend to reject her because of her social class. So I am not belittling anyone. I am being told here that they are all liars and no good (or "unsuitable"). I am being given only prior probabilities as evidence, nothing that should convince anyone because it can't take this person into account.

It's got nothing to do with scientific vs. non-scientific, it's the same approach to reasonable decision-making anywhere: if there is a doubt that this person may be no good, then there needs to be a way to find that out. Something is mumbled about "needing to develop other skills", but I am not interested at this time in "developing other skills" to go out and find other girls. And if there are such skills to boast about, they should be explainable. All I want to find out if this person, who seems so good, is in fact good for me or not. This is why I asked here, to find if there is a chance and how to tell.

I am not asking whether I should go with her. I am not asking anyone to decide for me. I am not asking for 100% certainty. I am only asking what else can be done to deal with the known risk that this ends up in disaster by looking at this person more closely. While it seems cold and "scientific" it is just about being reasonable. It does not help anyone involved if this ends in a disaster. And yes, in many cases similar situations may have ended in disaster, but not in all, and such prior probabilities do not tell about anyone's specific case. The only thing helpful for someone in my situation is to be given ideas how to assess the particular person and the relationship.

PS: let it be 60%, I do not insist on my 20%. It's a guess like many things. If you have better experience, I accept other numbers. The point is still, anyone in this situation deals with a residual possibility of having a genuinely good person and risks rejecting them because of unfavorable prior probabilities. It has nothing to do with "pedestals" either. Once you are close to a person, it is only natural to take them serious and for what this person really is, not what her social background makes them likely to be.


Edited by Squiddie - 30 July 2010 at 21:34

Originally posted by Squiddie Unfortunately, in many cases one or both parties (often the leaving one first) are unreasonable and mean. There is an entire web forum full of dads hurt in such ways. But the point is: it doesn't have to be played out that way. The person leaving is not a "bitch" or "whore" and the 3rd person is not a thief or "whore".

You're right in that "it doesn't need to be that way", but you're analyzing this like the theoretical side and not the practical side. I know plenty of "couples with children" who have separated in less controversial ways and in the majority of them the dad loses. The wife asks for whatever she wants, and then asks for more, and gets it. At least in the US, society is geared to give the benefit of the doubt, the pity, the assets and custody to the ex-wife. So don't forget to consider the POSSIBILITY that your wife COULD ask for (and receive) full custody of the children. Then what?

To address some other things that have been mentioned:

1. Yes, it is possible that there is a "better match" for you than your wife. Yet no one here (not even you) will know whether the girl you met is the best match. You can't consider the billions of candidates; you simply give up the search and settle for what you've found so far.

2. Will your kids and wife understand? You can try to explain as best you can and hope they understand, but you'll never know how they'll react. They could decide to hate you in spite of your best efforts to explain. You are sitting there analyzing all the possibilities and, therefore, you'll be prepared emotionally for whatever the outcome of the marriage/separation. They don't know what's coming.

One more thing. You should stop with statements like "I am not looking for scientific proof of anything" because from reading your posts it sure sounds like you are.